Question & Answer with Paris Marx
by Jacob Pleasants
This week’s post is a follow up to Jacob Pleasant’s review of Paris Marx’ “Road to Nowhere” book from August 28th, 2022. You can read that full review along with the question and answer here. In this post, Jacob shares a question and answer with Paris Marx (learn more abour Paris at their website https://parismarx.com/). Paris not only authored “Road to Nowhere,” but also hosts the popular Tech Won’t Save Us podcast.
Marx, Paris (2022). Road to nowhere: What Silicon Valley gets wrong about the future of transportation. Verso.
Purchase from publisher. 272 pages
. ISBN-13 : 978-1839765889.
Question and Answer
JP: One of your major points in the book is that when we look at proposals that come from tech companies, we very much need to think about those proposals in an appropriate context (historical, social, political, economic). It seems to me that the key idea is that by looking at those contexts, we can get a better handle on the values that underlie the technology being put forth. I actually have a couple of questions for you about this idea, because it’s such an important one.
First, paying attention to context and to values is not something that most people normally do. It seems to require a sort of “coming-to-consciousness.” Does that describe your own experience? Did you have your own “coming-to-consciousness” when it comes to thinking critically about technology? If so, what were some of the pivotal moments and key people on that journey?
PM: I think it would be fair to say that I did, and certainly it was a process that happened over a number of years. But key to that process was paying attention to what tech companies were doing in cities, particularly with plans to change the transport system and proposals for future “smart” cities, hence the book that I wrote. I could see how Uber was not delivering on the grand promises it made to improve how everyone got around and the distraction provided by autonomous vehicles as its timelines kept getting further and further delayed. Those observations and the research I did on that aspect of tech served as an entry point to a broader critique of the tech industry and the ideology that underpins it, which is now foundational to the work I do to critically interrogate the industry, its leaders, and the many promises made by companies in the space.
JP: Obviously, it would be great if everyone just read your book. But let’s imagine we’re dealing with someone who is not likely to just pick it up on their own. Maybe a friend, coworker, family member who isn’t necessarily against your ideas, but hasn’t really given a lot of this stuff very much thought and employs a healthy degree of skepticism. What do you think are some effective ways of beginning to raise someone’s awareness of the bigger picture issues that you address? How would you begin the conversation with a person like this? (I’m thinking about this as sort of “prep-work” to prepare someone to not only pick up your book but be mentally prepared to receive the perspectives you develop)
PM: It’s a big question because I really think it depends on the angle through which you’re approaching the topic. If we’re broadly talking about the topic of transportation, I’d probably start with the more general frustrations that people feel about the car-dominated transport system — things like the time people spend stuck in traffic and the cost of owning a vehicle — then use those to discuss more fundamental problems and why the solutions of tech companies aren’t going to solve them. But really, I think there are many ways into the conversation depending on what the person in particular is interested in and knowing how to approach the topic based on that, so it’s hard to give a concrete answer.
JP: You address issues that obviously have great social significance. As an educator, my thinking naturally goes toward: how are we preparing our young people to think about these issues? I think it’s plain that, by and large, we have not educated the public in a way that prepares them to think about our transportation system in particularly productive ways. Of course, that isn’t to say that we haven’t taught them something about our transportation system, because I think we definitely have. It’s more that what we have taught probably isn’t very accurate, and that there is much we haven’t taught that we probably should. I’d like your take on this.
When it comes to transportation technologies in particular and technology more generally, what do you see as some of the most problematic ideas that are taught to people in our society? (Either through formal schooling or the “school of life”)
PM: Two immediately come to mind, though I’m sure there are many more. First, on the topic of transportation, is the idea that when we have traffic, all we need to do to solve that problem is to add more roads, and in particular new highway lanes. This seems like an obvious solution — add more space and all those cars will have more room — but there’s a pretty solid body of evidence right now that that’s not the way it works, and that actually road expansions are incredibly expensive and often do little to nothing to relieve traffic congestion because they just incentivize more people to drive on those routes. The way to reduce traffic is to get people out of cars.
Second, thinking about the tech industry, is to think that technology is directly linked to progress — that as new technologies are created, society is getting better. But that’s not a guarantee, and I would hope that the past decade or so has made that clear, though I think for many it hasn’t sunk in yet. Technologies designed and deployed to increase the profits and social control of the companies behind them are not inherently better for the world, but can make our lives far worse in many ways, whether it’s making our means of communication more toxic, tracking everything we do, taking more control over our workplaces (if not eliminating jobs altogether), or placing digital barriers or prices in places they didn’t previously exist.
JP: Let’s imagine that a very forward-thinking high school has decided to really rethink how they teach students about our transportation system. And they have decided to come to you, Paris Marx, as an expert consultant to help them decide what they ought to be teaching. So, you’ve got the power! What should this school be teaching its students about transportation technologies?
PM: That’s a tough one! I think the key should be equipping students to think critically about transportation and technology so they’d not so easily duped by the marketing and PR of auto and tech companies. For me, an important way to do that (as I do in the book) is to look at the history of those industries and systems to dispel the myths they rely on — where Silicon Valley came from, how reliant it was on public funding, where its tech determinism and entrepreneurial narratives came from, but also how the transportation system we have today — one that’s dominated by automobiles — came to be and the problems it created.